Michael,
I will respond to your views, but know that it will take some time and the reply by necessity will be legthy. I'll reply to your personal e-mail address as what I share will be too extensive for anyone else to read anyway.
As a FYI:
I an a member of the Marian Catechesit Lay Apostolate; an organization under annual vows of Obedience to our Pope and the magesterium. I am trained, tested and certified to Know, live and share our Catholic Faith.
having shared that, I wish to also make plain that is is neiter my goal or my task to convert you. That my friend is beteween you and God. What then is my goal? It comprises of two elements.
1. To expound and express the TRUTH of the CC
2. God WILLING to push you to rethink your positions which are nothing short of herisies. Results are left to God.
I am Gravely Morally obligated to express our Faith truths Fully and without personal prejudice. So it may take me awhile to complete my responce. Be patient.
I have a very ACTIVE Teaching Ministry that I must also keep up with.
As noted before; I will be candid in my comments. Please take such as a form of brotherly-charity. That is my intent.
God Bless,
Pat
From: michael quinlan <mpquin@...>
To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholic Questions Searching for Answers
To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholic Questions Searching for Answers
(Dear Pat, I admire candor, in fact, I find few people these days capable of hearing it or expressing it. You must be from my generation. The time before PC. Interaction between those who differ is healthy and charitable, actually. We help each other to hone what we think we believe. Below please find my responses underlined and in parentheses. Feel free to address any of my Social Teachings that I dissent from. Should prove interesting. God Bless, Michael : Devout Cafeteria Catholic)
Michael my friend, given your positions I forced to be candid in my response. PLEASE do not take it as a lack of charity. But candor seems to be what is called for here.
I will place my comments within the body of your post, and I am grateful for the reply and the opportunity share the ‘Catholic perspective.â€
Pat,
I have no personal qualms with many aspects of what I would describe as Central Faith. Intercession, Salvation, The Trinity, Heaven, ... all are good and do not present themselves in a light that exudes anything other than good.
Salvation must be “earned or meritedâ€(Here we definitely agree. Those unworthy of salvation shall not receive it.) and it must be accomplished in the manner, with adherence to ALL that god commands and teaches.(Absolutely. Since God is granting salvation, he should certainly make the rules as to how salvation is achieved.) If you’d care to receive a document of this topic please let me know where to forward it to?
The foundational idea that anyone can pick and choose what to believe and what they can opt to reject(Actually Pat, it is done, all the time.) is at best a myth, and wishful thinking. Nowhere in the entire Bible or Tradition can one find even the slightest bit of evidence that God EVER, even one time; permitted faith beliefs and practices that he had not taught or specified or permitted.(Yeah, about those days. I'm sorry, I see that part of the Bible as apocryphal, myself. My children will NEVER be taught that God taught others to kill women and children who were pagans. That is right up there with forcing people to each placenta, menstrual fluids, and their own children. )That Michael is why there are THOUSANDS of Protestant denomination; ALL of which, despite there bluster and man-made myths are in EXTREME danger of not attaining heaven.(Actually, a number of Protestants are excellent spiritual role models. Norman Vincent Peale, the former Episcopal Bishop of NY, and if it wasn't for Martin Luther there would have been no Catholic Reformation.)
WHY? Because God is an absolute sense MUST judge humanity NOT on what we know, accept, or choose to believe; BUT on what God makes POSSIBLE for one to know and therefore MUST accept.(Acceptance always implies choice.) Truth per issue is a “singular thing.â€(Real truth always is.) One God; Only One set of acceptable to God, Faith beliefs, and Only his One Church. Today’s CC. (Sorry, wrong conclusion.)I f God actually approved of other sets or optional sets of faith beliefs; by absolute necessity, he would have been obligated to share this with us.(Actually, God is not obligated to do anything, by virtue of His office.).) So Michael, where is the evidence that God has done so?(Martin Luther, John Hus, John Calvin, even the Renaissance itself and its ramifications are all part of God's design.) Yes we are to follow “our conscience†But only when it is RIGHTLY and Correctly informed.(Most indubitably. However, it is not confined to submission to a limited set of beliefs. God is not so easily defined.)
My great dissension revolves around Social Teaching. In many aspects, I find it irrational at best, and evil at worst. Though I do expose my Catholic Tradition to my children, I explain my dissension in this area, most pointedly.
Masturbation, homosexuality, women priests, contraception, divorce, pregnancy enhancements, formal Confession, and mandatory Mass attendance, are the areas that I stand in direct dissension with the Church.
The brief answer here is the FACT that God gives to HIS created humanity ONLY two choices. 1. As you have seemingly opted to do: you are in charge(In reality,we are, of our choices.)2. God as our Creator is in charge(ultimately) and the responsibility CANNOT be split. Simply stated: there is God’s way and then there is the wrong way.(Sounds like my way or the highway. cute.)(Having said that, I would definitely avoid the wrong way, as well.)
Isa.43 Verses 7and 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.â€(Forever, may we all be His, praising Him.)
The Commandments Michel are ONLY categories of sins; NOT the entire list.(According to whom?) This becomes clearly evident by reading all of
Matthews Chapter Five.
Exo. 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.â€
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; “(Sounds fine.)
Remember to keep holy the Sabbath dayâ€(Yes, in my own way.)
"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. “(Cursing I don't approve of.)
4. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.(Yes, but does not imply obedience once an adult.)
5. "You shall not kill. “(Unless it's necessary.)
6. "You shall not commit adulteryâ€.(Divorce and re-marriage does not constitute adultery.)
7. "You shall not stealâ€.(Unless necessary.)
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.â€(Unless necessary.)
9. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; or propertyâ€(Jealousy is an emotion.)
10.“you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors."(Ditto.)
Your stated position of masturbation, contraception, and homosexuality are all issues relating to Gods EXCLUSIVE right as our Creator, to demand that we use HIS system for birth control(according to who?). Christ Himself instituted the seven sacraments and set their boundaries. Not one of the issues you struggle with is a Church invention. I can be far more specific but am concerned abut space.(Why?) But again I offer to discuss each of these issues separately if you’ll tell me how we might do so?
All life and death Issues MUST remain God’s and God alones to control(according to who?)
.
Genesis 4:1
The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. 'I have acquired a man with the help of Yahweh,' she said.
Birth is Controlled by God(Actually Adam had something to do with it.)
John.1 Verses 12 to 14: “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. “
Gen.38: 6-10
“And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah [the Father of both sons] said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also.
(I'm afraid, I don't believe it.)Women Priest are a IMPOSSIBILITY(Nothing is impossible for God.); if for no other reason then their gender, The Eucharist become Jesus Christ with the words: “This is MY Body,†and this “IS MY Bloodâ€.. Because Christ is male-gender ONLY another male make be used to make this happen. Other reasons exist as well.
Mandatory Mass attendance is a Commandment.(according to who?)
Forgives of sin Can and WILL ONLY happen as God Himself has Ordained and Commanded.(I will speak to God alone about my sins.)
John.20 Verses 20 to 23
" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."[WITH GODS POWER AND AUTHORITY] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained"
Where we choose to spend Eternity is a choice God demands that WE; you and me make. Heaven and hell are real and eternity is forever. God only affirms our choice; so my friend, you can decide. But God MUST be fair and just. He Must judge each of us on the basis of what WE CHOOSE.(What else would He base it upon)As a parent you have a grave responsibility to share God’s OWN truths with your family.(And I do.)
Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.â€(Beautiful and true.)
Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.â€
1 Peter 1: 17
“Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “
“
Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."(And I do.)
Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.â€
God Bless you my friend,
Pat
Infallibility, though rarely talked about, is another Church teaching I must decline in agreeing with.
Feel free to address any and all. I've heard all the arguments before, but convoluted reasoning I have no use for.
Respectfully Yours,
Michael : A Devout Cafeteria Catholic
On Jan 13, 2012, Patrick Miron <patrickmiron66@...> wrote:
Michael my friend, given your positions I forced to be candid in my response. PLEASE do not take it as a lack of charity. But candor seems to be what is called for here.
I will place my comments within the body of your post, and I am grateful for the reply and the opportunity share the ‘Catholic perspective.â€
Pat,
I have no personal qualms with many aspects of what I would describe as Central Faith. Intercession, Salvation, The Trinity, Heaven, ... all are good and do not present themselves in a light that exudes anything other than good.
Salvation must be “earned or merited†and it must be accomplished in the manner, with adherence to ALL that god commands and teaches. If you’d care to receive a document of this topic please let me know where to forward it to?
The foundational idea that anyone can pick and choose what to believe and what they can opt to reject is at best a myth, and wishful thinking. Nowhere in the entire Bible or Tradition can one find even the slightest bit of evidence that God EVER, even one time; permitted faith beliefs and practices that he had not taught or specified or permitted. That Michael is why there are THOUSANDS of Protestant denomination; ALL of which, despite there bluster and man-made myths are in EXTREME danger of not attaining heaven.
WHY? Because God is an absolute sense MUST judge humanity NOT on what we know, accept, or choose to believe; BUT on what God makes POSSIBLE for one to know and therefore MUST accept. Truth per issue is a “singular thing.†One God; Only One set of acceptable to God, Faith beliefs, and Only his One Church. Today’s CC. I f God actually approved of other sets or optional sets of faith beliefs; by absolute necessity, he would have been obligated to share this with us. So Michael, where is the evidence that God has done so? Yes we are to follow “our conscience†But only when it is RIGHTLY and Correctly informed.
My great dissension revolves around Social Teaching. In many aspects, I find it irrational at best, and evil at worst. Though I do expose my Catholic Tradition to my children, I explain my dissension in this area, most pointedly.
Masturbation, homosexuality, women priests, contraception, divorce, pregnancy enhancements, formal Confession, and mandatory Mass attendance, are the areas that I stand in direct dissension with the Church.
The brief answer here is the FACT that God gives to HIS created humanity ONLY two choices. 1. As you have seemingly opted to do: you are in charge 2. God as our Creator is in charge and the responsibility CANNOT be split. Simply stated: there is God’s way and then there is the wrong way.
Isa.43 Verses 7and 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.â€
The Commandments Michel are ONLY categories of sins; NOT the entire list. This becomes clearly evident by reading all of
Matthews Chapter Five.
Exo. 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.â€
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; “
Remember to keep holy the Sabbath dayâ€
"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. “
4. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
5. "You shall not kill. “
6. "You shall not commit adulteryâ€.
7. "You shall not stealâ€.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.â€
9. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; or propertyâ€
10.“you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors."
Your stated position of masturbation, contraception, and homosexuality are all issues relating to Gods EXCLUSIVE right as our Creator, to demand that we use HIS system for birth control. Christ Himself instituted the seven sacraments and set their boundaries. Not one of the issues you struggle with is a Church invention. I can be far more specific but am concerned abut space. But again I offer to discuss each of these issues separately if you’ll tell me how we might do so?
All life and death Issues MUST remain God’s and God alones to control
.
Genesis 4:1
The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. 'I have acquired a man with the help of Yahweh,' she said.
Birth is Controlled by God
John.1 Verses 12 to 14: “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. “
Gen.38: 6-10
“And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah [the Father of both sons] said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also.
Women Priest are a IMPOSSIBILITY; if for no other reason then their gender, The Eucharist become Jesus Christ with the words: “This is MY Body,†and this “IS MY Bloodâ€.. Because Christ is male-gender ONLY another male make be used to make this happen. Other reasons exist as well.
Mandatory Mass attendance is a Commandment.
Forgives of sin Can and WILL ONLY happen as God Himself has Ordained and Commanded.
John.20 Verses 20 to 23
" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."[WITH GODS POWER AND AUTHORITY] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained"
Where we choose to spend Eternity is a choice God demands that WE; you and me make. Heaven and hell are real and eternity is forever. God only affirms our choice; so my friend, you can decide. But God MUST be fair and just. He Must judge each of us on the basis of what WE CHOOSE. As a parent you have a grave responsibility to share God’s OWN truths with your family.
Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.â€
Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.â€
1 Peter 1: 17
“Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “
“
Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.â€
God Bless you my friend,
Pat
Infallibility, though rarely talked about, is another Church teaching I must decline in agreeing with.
Feel free to address any and all. I've heard all the arguments before, but convoluted reasoning I have no use for.
Respectfully Yours,
Michael : A Devout Cafeteria Catholic
From: michael quinlan <mpquin@...>
To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholic Questions Searching for Answers
To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholic Questions Searching for Answers
Pat,
I have no personal qualms with many aspects of what I would describe as Central Faith. Intercession, Salvation, The Trinity, Heaven, ... all are good and do not present themselves in a light that exudes anything other than good.
My great dissension revolves around Social Teaching. In many aspects, I find it irrational at best, and evil at worst. Though I do expose muy Catholic Tradition to my children, I explain my dissension in this area, most pointedly.
Masturbation, homosexuality, women priests, contraception, divorce, pregnancy enhancements, formal Confession, and mandatory Mass attendance, are the areas that I stand in direct dissension with the Church.
Infallibility, though rarely talked about, is another Church teaching I must decline in agreeing with.
Feel free to address any and all. I've heard all the arguments before, but convoluted reasoning I have no use for.
Respectfully Yours,
Michael : A Devout Cafeteria Catholic
On Jan 13, 2012, Patrick Miron <patrickmiron66@...> wrote:
Michael,
Could you please be more specific on where the Church is an official teaching has Erred on a Matter of Faith beliefs or Morals. I'm not aware of any?
God Bless,
Pat
From: michael quinlan <mpquin@...>
To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholic Questions Searching for Answers
To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholic Questions Searching for Answers
Yes, it is an unfortunate place to be, "a rock and a hard place." What do we do when the Church has erred in something they "aren't supposed to" have erred in? I guess, until it is resolved, the Church is incapable of helping the situation.
My grandfather hated doctors, because he didn't like being told what to do, by a man. Also, there was one other unfortunate element involved.
"Only sick people need a doctor. Real men, don't need doctors." Despite the fact he was a real man, he died at the age of 56 for not addressing his heart disease. Most unfortunate.
Respectfully Yours,
A Devout Cafeteria Catholic
On Jan 13, 2012, Robin <rdnuclearmed@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:42 AM, michael quinlan <mpquin@...> wrote:
Yes, yes, very nice. However, concerning us, in the 21st century too many teachings hinge upon one thing. That not only did Jesus establish the Church, but it can do no wrong. Here, we part company.
Robin replies:
When has this ever been stated in any official church document? It hasn't. The Church can and has, and will go wrong on many issues and yet what She can't go wrong on are what are doctrinal truths because Jesus promised that His Church will be guided into ALL truth (John 16:13). If She isn't guided into all truth (on faith and morals) then this Church cannot be the pillar and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) and therefore Jesus' directive to go to the Church to resolve differences between believers would be useless (Mat 18:15-18).
When has this ever been stated in any official church document? It hasn't. The Church can and has, and will go wrong on many issues and yet what She can't go wrong on are what are doctrinal truths because Jesus promised that His Church will be guided into ALL truth (John 16:13). If She isn't guided into all truth (on faith and morals) then this Church cannot be the pillar and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) and therefore Jesus' directive to go to the Church to resolve differences between believers would be useless (Mat 18:15-18).
God Bless
Robin
